Debate Part 2 - Religion

Following stating my positions on politics in general (last blogpost), I broached the subject of Mormonism. I stated that while I know there has been some bad press on some Mormons, such as underage wives and a second-class treatment of women among them, there are also bright points I have seen too:

• They were the first to respond with aide following Hurricane Katrina - three days before the Red Cross and over a week before State and Federal government responded. They had left two days before the Hurricane made landfall to be there right after it hit.
• Mormons are the only Christian group I have seen who prepare for the "End Times." They store a full seven (7) years of food, water and necessaries to survive practically any natural disaster short of the sun going nova. More importantly, they SHARE that when disaster strikes. ("If you love me, feed my lambs."~Jesus)
• In addition, they require every male and female of 17 years old to go out and preach the words of Christ. They are not to confront anyone, nor are they to fight with someone even if threatened with violence. Many are threatened as they go door-to-door through the neighborhoods. The Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormon Church) also spends money in advertisements that spread the message of "Love your neighbor."

I clearly indicated that I do not mean that Mormonism is the "one true way." I pointed out that it is neither all good, nor all bad. In fact, none of them are. But as soon as I mentioned one good thing of Mormonism, I was slammed. He clearly debated his belief that Mormonism originated from the devil, and continued with, "Mormonism is all bad, all evil. The followers are deceived. Romney is a high priest in this false lying religion leading people into hell..." He added, "There are many seemingly "good" people among Hindus, Buddhists, even Muslims, but they are deceived by false religion."

I replied that I have no doubts that Gandhi is in Heaven right now feasting with Jesus. I got another long tirade following that, including:

• Jesus must be worshiped and received as Lord and Savior, there is no other way to Heaven, no back doors for Hindus or anyone else. In other words, Gandhi could not be saved by acting "Christlike" A PERSON MUST BE BORN AGAIN. You must be bought by the blood of Jesus... Anyone who does what looks right is not necessarily a Christian. The devil can do something that looks good. He is a deceiver..Only the blood of Jesus can get anyone to Heaven. Only those who have been washed in the blood of Jesus, whose sins have been paid for.

He would not be dissuaded from this even when I brought up statements from the bible he hopes I will learn from:

• Matt 7:1 ~ "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
• Matt 7:16-18 ~ "By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit." 
• Matt 12:50 ~ "Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!"

Jesus/Yeshua. is not looking for a church of converts; He wants us to simply and completely: Love each other; forgive each other, and help each other. Period. He does not say anywhere "Join my Church or perish ye in the flames of hell!" :*(

My debater told me, "Jesus said He came into the world to divide the sheep from the goats. You have bought into the worst lie of the devil that dishonors Jesus." I believe he refers to a part of Matt 25:32. I argued that JESUS will separate the sheep in the goats. We do not have the Omniscience that He shares with the Father. We are instructed NOT to judge each other.

He argued that: "Judge not means don't judge your brother and sister's lives, but we have the mind of Christ if we are His & we are told to judge all things." Sadly, I have heard this argument many times before. Many fail to recall the ENTIRE passage in Matthew. It begins by these words:

• “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."

First, Christ has not yet returned in the Second Coming, of which this passage speaks. Second, it clearly states that HE will Judge. Sadly, there are many in the world who feel they are called to be the judges of humanity. This, unfortunately leads to hatred, condemnation, war and hardships that need not be in this world. He compared Romney to Hitler in his blogpost. Why does he not see that he does the very same thing Hitler did with his words of hate?

I learned that it is the adversary who wants mankind divided. Remember, together we can achieve something greater than the sum of our individual efforts. Divisions lead to hate, and to war. Feeling you are part of a group (or even individually) "higher" than another or are "the chosen ones" leads to pride, segregation and prejudice.

Christ taught: Love one another. Love those you see as your enemy. Pray for those who persecute you. And - one many forget - forgive one another. In drawing these lines, do we do any of these?

I know that there are good souls in all religions of the world. I know with absolute certainty, that one does not need to follow a Church to follow Christ. We need to follow what He teaches and the path is open to us. Period.

I had asked my debater thrice if he was a descendant of Abraham, if he had blood ties to the 12 tribes of Israel. Why? Also from the bible, Christ speaks these words:

• Matt 15:24 ~ Then Jesus said to the woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."

Yet after the Resurrection, Christ proclaims:

• John 10:16 ~ "I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd."

Interestingly enough, the accounts in the Book of Mormon that speak of Jesus, say the interactions with those in North America take place after the Resurrection.

There are also accounts in southwestern Native American history that speak of a visitor who taught them to love one another, and forgive one another. One witness realized it was the Christ of whom the newly-seen "white man" had spoken, yet added: "But He was not like what they say He is. He is not pale like the white man, but dark skinned like the People." Which is actually true. He is not as dark as some from the African continent, but does have the dark-olive complexion of the middle-east. Ironically, many may mistake him as "terrorist" if He walked in America today.

Are the Mormon accounts true then? I honestly do not know. Sadly, I was not able to continue this debate as my debater had unfollowed me when I asked the question about Abraham. I do not even know if he read them, and I had no chance to share the final passages above.

What I've been given to know is simply this: We are called to Love one another. That means unity, not division. We are called to be humble; that means not proclaiming your belief is greater than another. We are called to share and care, that does not mean wishing others go to hell. We are called to Forgive, not "convert" others to your way of thinking; that's campaigning which politicians do. Campaigning does not teach, does not love, and certainly does not forgive... 

Love one Another.
Please...
:*(

~ ESA

Debate Part 1 - Politics

While I put my twitter account on hiatus, I do check my DM messages. I made the mistake of reading and responding to a blogpost someone sent me. The blogpost spoke vehemently against US Presidential  candidate Mitt Romney, comparing him to Hitler and calling him the antiChrist. Why? Because Romney is Mormon.

*sigh*

I started my response by saying I don't prefer to discuss politics. My political point of view runs along these lines:

• I chose to be "Independent" because I had to choose some party when I registered and I wanted neither Democratic nor Republican. Sadly, Joe Lieberman (a Republican wolf in sheep's clothing) switched to the "Independent" party when he lost the Republican primaries one year. Now I search for another non-affiliate party. 
• The leader we choose should be chosen not based on the group affiliations, the amount of money he has (or raises for the political campaign), nor the color of his skin, but by the content of his (or her) character.
• I believe strongly we should have a legitimate "None of the Above" option on voting ballots - from President to Town Clerk. Too often we are left to decide who is the "lesser of the two (or more) evils." If we could vote "None of the Above" and force those who parley for our attention and votes to get out of the way, perhaps better choices would rise. Or perhaps politicians would spend more time resolving real issues and spending less time campaigning.
• I believe strongly that ANY political leader who has any say in a budget should live on minimum wage for at least 5 years - without using any savings (including a mortgage-free home) and without breaking any laws, including "working under the table" (cash only, no income taxes). In all honestly, those who manage to live as such at or below poverty level have a MUCH better sense in how to budget than those who can loose a few thousand dollars without a concern.
• I believe we should eliminate the Electoral College in America. That was established when it took weeks to send a message and the country was far smaller. Now, every single vote should count.
• I also believe that EVERY American 18 years or older should have the right to vote. Sadly, there are parts of this country where people are no longer allowed to vote - even though they are legitimate US Citizens. The laws require the people have certain ID's (like a State issued Driver's License). Not everyone drives. Even the State issued, non-license ID's cost a great deal of money. If you had to choose to vote once per year or eat for a month, which would you choose? Sadly, that is a decision some are forced to make. Then, there are the homeless. Whether these people reside in a temporary homeless shelter, live in their car or are in a cardboard box on the street, they can not obtain these ID's for they do not have a legitimate "home" address. Even if they have a Post Office Box to receive the mail, the laws clearly indicate that is not good enough to obtain the "proper ID" needed to vote. Many of our poor are unable to vote in our election systems.

Sadly, I also believe that no matter how strong the moral character a leader has, it will be SORELY tried in the viperous den of DC... There are very strong influences to protect what they have built there, and way too many corporations have strings tied to the politicians.

• Thus I also believe there should be no corporate campaign contributions. There should also be a law stating that those who contribute can NOT influence decisions after the election. Oh, how quickly campaign dollars would dry up if that came to fruition.

Did you know that when America was founded, those who were its first Senators and House Representatives were VOLUNTEERS! Yes, they did not receive a penny (or even half-penny) for their work. They did so because they loved their country. That is why politicians have so much vacation time; that was when they were to go back home to work on their farms and businesses to earn a living for their families. Now they earn millions, have full-paid benefits that most of us can only dream about, including extravagant health-care while millions go without it, and even paid room and board while they "work" in DC.

- ESA